Yisroel,
Thank you for engaging with the Word of God. Now we can begin to have a worthwhile dialogue. Having addressed the circular logic that drives your exegesis in the previous post, let’s now look at the credibility of what you have written concerning Isaiah 9:6-7.
Before pointing out where I think you’re very wrong I want to acknowledge where you’re very right. And that is concerning the historical context. What you provided was a very helpful and accurate exposition of the historical realities during the decades surrounding the Assyrian invasion. But unfortunately you use your informed perspective on the background to justify a great error, namely the assertion that Hezekiah is the “son” that Isaiah was prophesying about. This is inexcusably atrocious exegesis driven by a staunch unwillingness to consider the possibility that your Jewish prophets spoke of the Man from Nazareth you have come to despise.
“MIGHTY GOD”
In your words:
The second thing I will tell you is that the verse does not necessarily say “Mighty God” or “Everlasting Father”. The very same Hebrew phrase that is translated here as: “Mighty God”, is used in Ezekiel to describe Gentile warriors in the plural format (Ezekiel 32:21). The Hebrew word: “Ad” – which is translated as everlasting – can also mean spoils as in Genesis 49:27 and Isaiah 33:23. In other words the verse reads: wonderful counselor, mighty warrior, father of spoils, prince of peace”.
This is false information. The same Hebrew phrase “mighty God” (el-gibbor) is found in the next chapter (10:21) where it is an unmistakable reference to God Himself:
“A remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the mighty God (el-gibbor).”
Despite the fact that the phrase has been used to speak directly of God (setting a clear precedent for it to be interpreted that way elsewhere), some scholars (with whom you would side) argue that the phrase in Isaiah 9:6-7 should be taken to mean “mighty man,” “a godlike warrior,” or “mighty hero.” Before you throw all your eggs into that basket, I suggest you probe your prejudices and do some homework.
There are many examples identical in form with Isaiah 9:6 where “el” is followed by an adjective or noun. In every case where it is used before an adjective it always retains its full status as a noun (as in Ex. 20:5; Deut. 7:9; 10:17). When it is followed by a noun (as in Gen. 21:33; Deut. 32:4; Ps. 31:5-6; 68:19-20) we read statements like “the God [who is] eternity” and “the God [who is] our salvation.” This flies in the face of the academic hot air that appeals to the Hebrew on their biased terms. Clearly they’re not being honest with the facts.
Motyer writes:
“If ever “el” is used adjectivally, the phrase is…never diluted into “godlike.” Wherever we find “el” with a following adjective or noun, “el” is never adjectival but is always the ruling noun, more closely defined by the additional word.” (The Prophecy of Isaiah, IVP, p. 105)
I’m not prepared to ignore the data.
Concerning “gibbor,” you’re position is even more problematic. 126 times out of the 149 times it is found, it is used as a noun. Take Daniel 11:23 for example: “A mighty king will arise…” Reducing and diminishing this to “kinglike warrior” is nonsense. In passages like Deut. 10:17, Ps. 24:8, Jer. 20:11, 32:18, and Zeph. 3:17 “gibbor” qualifies “God” or “LORD.” This is another precedent that you aren’t permitted to throw under the bus to advance your misinformation.
Again to quote Motyer:
“(1) There is no evidence supporting an adjectival use of “el” in Isaiah 9:6. Nothing justifies “godlike” or “divine” in the modern sense of “very remarkable.” If el is to be rendered “divine” it must, therefore, be given its strictest sense. (2) In light of the linking of “gibbor” with various appellations of the God of Israel, Isaiah cannot have been unaware that el-gibbor would be understood in its plain meaning. He puts the matter beyond equivocation by using the identical title of the Lord Himself in 10:21.”
To quote Ezekiel 32:21 has little bearing on Isaiah 9:6-7. In light of 10:21, Ezekiel’s use of a variation of the word should not be given a determinative voice. Thus we would be foolish to pit it against Isaiah 9:6-7. If you want to continue down this trajectory, I’m happy to discuss it with you, but as I trust you can see, the evidence is not in your favor. Isaiah 10:21 is a real problem for you.
The data clearly refutes any attempt to gut the phrase of its obvious intended meaning. The question then, is whether this title, this given name, can be ascribed to the man you contend fulfilled this magnificent prophecy. That is, did King Hezekiah fulfill the various nuances of the text? Not by a longshot.
THE ETERNAL FATHER
Not only was Hezekiah a mere man who was unworthy of the name “mighty God,” there is no logical reason to ascribe the title “everlasting Father” or “eternal Father” to either. Isaiah uses the word “eternity” (ad) more than any other Biblical author. While he uses it in a general way (26:4; 30:8), he also uses it an absolute sense (57:15; 64:8-9; 65:18). “Father” is never used to describe any other king in the Tanakh. This would be the first time; that is, if your interpretation was true (which obviously suggests it is not). Combining the words “eternal” with “Father” is powerful, unique, and pregnant with significance concerning the identity of the promised King that would sit upon the throne of David (2 Sam. 7; Ps. 72:4-14; Is. 11). Note only was Hezekiah unworthy of such an epithet, so were every other one of Israel’s kings.
The Son of whom Isaiah prophesied, was and is the One true “eternal Father” and “Mighty God” of Israel. Jesus is the Son of God who is “one with the Father” (Jn. 10; 14) and the “full representation” of the Holy One (Heb. 1:1-3; Col. 2:9). He is “God in the flesh” (1 Tim. 3:16).
THE THRONE OF DAVID
The Man that Isaiah prophesied was not a mere son of Adam who would temporarily fill the throne of David inaugurating a fleeting hour of power and a flimsy season of peace. You and I both know what followed Hezekiah’s death. The darkest hour of Israel’s history to date. Hezekiah’s “shoulder” was too weak to bear the “government” of which Isaiah prophesied. The “peace,” “righteousness,” and “justice” that followed his coronation fell short of that which was here prophesied. The “beautiful” One of whom Isaiah foretold (Is. 4:2-6; 33:17) would one day rule and reign from Zion having brought this present age to its appointed end. The ending of Hezekiah’s life dashed the hopes of those who may have been tempted to believe he was the one of whom was promised.
Your eyes will behold the king in his beauty;
they will see a land that stretches afar.
Your heart will muse on the terror:
“Where is he who counted, where is he who weighed the tribute?
Where is he who counted the towers?”
You will see no more the insolent people,
the people of an obscure speech that you cannot comprehend,
stammering in a tongue that you cannot understand.
Behold Zion, the city of our appointed feasts!
Your eyes will see Jerusalem,
an untroubled habitation, an immovable tent,
whose stakes will never be plucked up,
nor will any of its cords be broken.
But there the LORD in majesty will be for us
a place of broad rivers and streams,
where no galley with oars can go,
nor majestic ship can pass.
For the LORD is our judge; the LORD is our lawgiver;
the LORD is our king; he will save us.
(Isaiah 33:17-22 ESV)
In your words:
“The miracles that were performed in Hezekiah’s times are still reverberating, and they will continue to do so until the coming of the Messiah and beyond.”
My dear brother, the Messiah has already come. And He will soon return to fulfill all that was promised. Hezekiah managed to postpone death, Jesus conquered it. This is why His Jewish brethren “worshipped Him” after He resurrected from the dead (Mt. 28:9). Think of it! Jews worshipping a Man! In light of the Shema, how is not an abomination? Simple. Jesus is God.
The miracles of God in the days of Hezekiah were profound. But they were eclipsed by the greatest miracle of all–”the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us.”
Affectionately,
Dalton
Dalton,
I will let Rabbi. B, speak for himself (as I’m sure he will) but I wanted to may a point of my own.
The thrust of your latest post is arguing with a strawman. Yes, Rabbi B. did make reference to some possible alternative meanings to the key words in question. And it is to those translations that you devote most of your post. However, he also makes a very plainly clear staement as to what he sees as his translation of the verses. I realize you may have missed it as he placed it under the subtle capitlized title “MY TRANSLATION”. In it he wrote:
“The child that this verse speaks of will be a cause for the salvation of the Jewish people from the oppression of Sennacherib… In the merit of this holy child, who bore upon his shoulders the government of his people, God will display His wondrous counsel, His might, His mastery over time (Isaiah 38:8), together with a peace that lasted as long as Hezekiah lived (Isaiah 39:7).”
So the bottom line is that Rabbi B. (and all Judaism) is very clearly comfortable with the idea that the descriptions in the verse are indeed refering to God, thus negating 90% of your post. The question then reduces to whether the the better interpretation io the notion of “his name was called” is a literal description of the very nature of the child or whether it is “naming” in the sense of reputation and impact as is common in the prophetic scriptures . To that question the issues of timing, context, and history become critically important, and you have chosen to ignore those issues.
It’s also ironic that you accuse Rabbi B. of having “placed all his eggs in one basket” . While Judaism considers isaiah 9 holy scripture it does not have a critical theolgical stake in it. You on the other hand, staked your faith on your reading of this verse as evidence of OT trintarinism. That’s a very scary proposition to hinge on a reading so rife with questions as acknowledged by so many Christian scholars themselves. As Rabbi B. and Thomas pointed out, Jews do not even have to rely on their own traditions to neagte the dubious christological reading of isaiah 9. many Chtristian scholars have already done so.
…on the topic of naming, Dalton, isn’t it frustrating?
Why oh why couldn’t Isaiah have said “V’hu Yihiyeh” – and he will be – rather than “his name was called”, just as in regard to Ishmael, where the Torah says and “and he will be ‘pereh adam’ “, describing his nature. (athough even there it was a metaphore).
Why must all of these OT christological foreshadowings always be so darn vague?
Just imagine if Isaiah had actually said “and he will be” in chapter 9, or if in Chapter 7 he had actually said “virgin” instead of “young woman”. Wouldn’t thet have been so much more comforting?
Oh well..
One other thought.
There is a myth subscribed to in some missionary circles, that Jews are so terrified of the Christian “truth” that they actually avoid or ban the reading those section of the Tanakh that Christians believe have christological significance.
You might be interested to know that every Ashkenazic Orthodox Jewish synagogue on the planet read Isaiah 9:5-7 as part of yesterday’s Sabbath services. I am not aware that it precipitated any stampeding of Jews to the baptismal fonts (and my synagogue is within two city blocks of two diffewrent churces) just as it hasn’t for the last 2,000 years, nor will it ever.
http://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2012/02/12/seventh-response-to-dalton-lifsey/
Dalton- You say that because Is 10:21 can be rendered about G-d, that it gives precedence for Is 9 to also be rendered about G-d. That is not biblical hermeneutics. Rule number one is CONTEXT determines meaning. Not that just because a scripture in Hebrew is rendered x, that a scripture elsewhere with the same word MUST also mean x.
The prophet Isaiah also in this section makes it PLAIN that G-d says that Isaiahs sons and their names will play a part in this historical event. From Uri Yosef at Messiah Truth.
Isaiah 8:18 – Here I am, and the children whom the Lord has given me for signs and for
wonders in Israel; [they are] from the Lord of Hosts, Who dwells on Mount Zion.
Isaiah 7:3 – And the Lord said to Isaiah, “Now go out toward AHAZ, you, and SheAR
YaSHUV [ ?????? ??????? ] your son; to the edge of the conduit of the upper pool, to the
road of the washer’s field.
The literal translation of the name ?????? ??????? is a remnant shall return, and
there is no doubt about this boy being Isaiah’s son – it is explicitly stated in the
text.
Isaiah 10:21-22 – (21) A remnant shall return [ ?????? ??????? ], a remnant of Jacob, to the
Mighty God [or, mighty hero]. (22) For if your people Israel shall be as the sand of the
sea, a remnant {of them} shall return [{ ?????? ??????? {???? (SheAR YaSHUV {BO})]; the
decreed destruction shall overflow with righteousness.
Note that, while the events described in Chapter 7 relate to the siege on
Jerusalem by the two northern armies during the reign of King AHAZ, the
prophetic words in Chapter 10, about a righteous remnant of Israel returning,
were spoken by Isaiah to King Hezekiah, the son of King AHAZ.
The historical realization of this sign is found in an account of the celebration of
the Passover by Hezekiah following the cleansing and consecration of the
Temple in Jerusalem. The narrative starts with the invitations that Hezekiah
wrote and sent out: 2Chronicles 30:1
The name of another son is
???? ?????? ???? ????
Isaiah 8:3 – And I was intimate with the prophetess, and she conceived and bore a son;
and the Lord said to me, “Call his name MaHER ShaLAL HASH BAZ
This sign, ????? ?????? ???? ???? , quicken-booty hasten-plunder, is found three
times in the Hebrew Bible – once in the identical form of the name itself, and
twice more with similar Hebrew terminology and in the same context. The first
instance is a prophetic statement about the impending looting by Assyria of all
the possessions of the Northern Kingdom of Israel, and about Babylon’s arrival to
pillage the Kingdom of Judah, along with Zedekiah and that generation:
Isaiah 8:1 – And the Lord said to me, “Take a great scroll, and write on it in clear script,
quicken-booty hasten-plunder [ ".[????? ?????? ???? ????
The other two instances are included in prophetic statements concerning those
who perverted justice and took advantage of widows, orphans, and the poor
among the people of the Northern Kingdom of Israel, against whom Assyria will
be sent in retribution:
Isaiah 10:2 - To pervert the judgment of the impoverished, and to rob the right from the
poor of My people; to make widows be their booty [ ???????? (shelaLAM)], and orphans
they should plunder [ ???????? (yaVOzu)].
Isaiah 10:6 – I will send them against a hypocritical nation, and against the people that
anger Me will I order them; to take booty [ ? ?????? ???? ????? (lishLOL shaLAL)], and to plunder
??????? ????] (velaVOZ BAZ)], and to tread them down like the mud of the streets.
The historical realization of this sign is the exiling and dispersal of the Northern
Kingdom of Israel by the Assyrians, a process that occurred in three stages:
The overall point is this: Isaiah does use names in a prophetic fashion and Hezekiah being translated “Might God” is without doubt part of the interplay of names and the reality of the prophecy fulfilled subsequently. It is important to grasp the poetic inferences of Isaiah. Names of children, prophecy fulfilled, name of Hezekiah, prophecy fulfilled.
Furthermore, one is forced to look at the context overall in the book of Isaiah:
Isaiah 40:18
To whom then will you liken God? To what likeness will you compare unto Him?
Isaiah 40:25
“To whom then will you liken Me, that I should be his equal?” says the Holy One.
Isaiah 42:8
I am the Lord, that is My name, and My glory will I not give to another. Neither My praise to graven images!
Isaiah 43:10-11
“You are My witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He. Before Me no god was formed, nor will there be one after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior.”
Isaiah 44:6-8
This is what the Lord says, Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty, “I am the first and I am the last; apart from Me there is no God! Who then is like Me? Let him proclaim it. Let him declare and lay out before Me . . . . Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are My witnesses. Is there any God besides Me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one.”
Isaiah 44:24
Thus said the Lord, your Redeemer, the One who formed you from the womb, “I am the Lord Who makes everything, Who stretched forth the heavens alone, Who spread out the earth by Myself.”
Isaiah 45:5-6
I am the Lord, and there is no other; besides Me there is no God; I will strengthen you . . . . In order that they know from the shining of the sun and from the west that there is no one besides Me; I am the Lord and there is no other!
Isaiah 45:21-22
. . . Who announced this from before, who declared it from the distant past? Is it not I, the Lord, and there is no God apart from Me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but Me. Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other!
Isaiah 46:5
To whom shall you liken Me and make Me equal and compare Me that we may be alike?
Isaiah 46:9
Remember the first things of old, that I am God and there is no other; I am God and there is none like Me.
Isaiah 48:11
. . . My honor I will not give to another.
Isaiah, the same prophet who gives us Isaiah 9, more than any other prophet makes PLAIN, the singular unique solitary oneness and nature of G-d. And in nearly every verse where G-d through Isaiah asserts his solitude…a New Testament verse somewhere blasphemes G-d and makes it about Jsus. So G-d is shown by the chruch to be a liar. G-d forbid. G-d says He is alone…no other…no equal…no comparison..no shared honor…no other savior and then the church violates the text of Isaiah and makes Jsus co-creator, co-equal- co-savior, co-everything.
So then the church asks us to believe the following: very same Isaiah, who speaks more than any other prophet about G-ds unique Alone-ness…also prophecies about a godman who is co-everything with G-d? A shared co-equal trinity when G-d says , NO. There is nothing elese. Context! When a passage is unclear or enigmatic, proper hermeneutics is to let those passages in the light, shed meaning on those in the dark. In 11 instances…Isaiah asserts the Jewish monotheistic position. So, do we render the prophetic Is 9 in like fashion? Or eisegetically read-into the text a Grecco-Roman hybrid god-man….
I have publically stood against a lot of Dalton’s teachings, especially his view on Israel and the Jews – yet the one thing I do agree with him on, is Christ is the Messiah of Scripture.
I want to respond to some issues raised by Yisroel….
Yisroel stated: “If you want to argue that these translations are bizarre and absurd, you will have to acknowledge that they are far less absurd and bizarre than the belief that a man can somehow be God.”
Man is not God, and neither can “somehow” become God, but if you state that the infinitely powerful Creator of all existence cannot become a man – you have denied Him His authority and majesty over creation. The God of Scripture is not subject to the vain limitations of man’s imagination, nor the scope of man’s reason. The God of Scripture is a God who does what He wills, when He wills and for His glory – and if that glory includes Him taking on the form of humanity, who are you as a mere creature to declare to your Creator that it is inconceivable, or even absurd?
Yisroel stated: “And what Jesus did to the Jews was nothing compared to what he did to the Gentiles. The Jews were physically oppressed in his name – but the Gentiles had darkness poured into their souls. The Jews suffered the holocaust – the followers of Jesus perpetrated it.”
The followers of Jesus Christ did not perpetrate the “holocaust”, the followers of the Luciferian Adolf Hitler perpetrated the “holocaust.” In fact, many true followers of Jesus Christ suffered under the Nazi regime for helping and hiding those of the Jewish religion. Who funded the despot of Germany? Any true intellectual would refrain from perverting history to justify their position.
Yisroel stated: (It always struck me as odd, that the election of Israel according to the Bible means greater responsibility and greater punishment (Amos 3:2), while the Christian “election” is a free ticket to “eternal life”.)
The election of Israel, which includes “all” who have faith in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and it does mean greater responsibility and greater punishment:
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? (1 Peter 4:17)
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. (Hebrews 12:6)
My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation. (James 3:1)
Yisroel stated: When Jesus said: “No-one comes to the Father, but through me”, it seems like he was saying something about himself, but he was not. Jesus was making a statement about you and about me and about every man and woman that inhabit God’s earth.
Actually, Jesus Christ is referring to Himself:
“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” (John 14:6)
And again Jesus Christ states: “Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.” (John 3:18)
I understand why you, a self-professed Pharisee, is anti-Christ – for you reject the only Savior and stand condemned (according to the Lord Jesus Christ, that is)….
Richard
Is it a denial of God’s sovereignty by saying that He cannot become stupid? get alzheimers, become “not God”?
The holocaust was perpetrated in a continent that was saturated with hatred for the Jew/Pharisee – courtesy of the Christian Churches – if you say they were following Lucifer – they say they were following Jesus
The election of Israel does not include “all” who believe in the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob and it certainly doesn’t include those who see Him as too small/fuzzy without the services of the man from Nazareth
Of-course Jesus was talking about himself – but he was intimating something false about you.
Finally – I am not “anti-Jesus” – I am pro-God – if Jesus feels left out that is his problem
…the Bolshevik Jews slaughtered up to 66 million white Russian Christians…but, I guess that doesn’t matter, because they were “goyim” – or the Lithuanian genocide, Armenian genocide? Clearly that is of no consequence to you, all you are interested in is trying to blame the actions of the German despot Hitler, on Christians. You see, I’m not ignorant of history and neither am I ignorant of your “anti-Christ” religion, and for being “pro-God” that is laughable, you are not “pro-God”, you deny the Son, therefore you deny the Father:
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. (1 John 2:22)
You are the very reason for people like Dalton, who have been deceived by the yeast of the Pharisee; they believe the lie that the “Jewish” people are God’s chosen people. I see straight through it, as the Lord Jesus Christ said:
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. (John 8:44)
May God grant you repentance, lest you find yourself where we all belong…
Richard– Wow what is your source for that 66 million killed by Jews? Rense? Arian brotherhood? KKK? I cant believe that comment was allowed to stay.
The Jews amounted from between 4 and 7 % of the Bolshevik party. So, the conspiracy theory is just garbage and nothing more. The rest of your post is just good old fashioned Anti-jew rant. And people wonder how it the NT could possibly be considered antiJew…lol
Hey Blaster
“You can’t believe that comment was allowed to stay?” Maybe because this site is not controlled by Jewish Zionists? By the way, KKK was birthed by Romanists, not Biblical Christians. “Good old anti-Jew rant”, everything you spew forth is anti-Christian rant. This is the very reason why Jews spawned organisations such as the “anti-defamation league” to label all constructive criticism of the Jews and their zionist agendas as “anti-semetic” (though most Jews are of Ashkenaz, and have no Semetic blood whatsoever). So quick to slap one’s face, but too cowardly to be slapped back.
Who is the true Jew? Not those who adhere to the Rabbinical teachings of the Talmud.
“For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.” (Romans 2:28-29)
I, for one, would like everything Richard posts to not only be kept on the board but preferably be highlighted.
By the way Rich, can I infer that calling Jews children of “their father the Devil” is an example of your “constructive criticism”?
Constructive criticism….that is what the Lord Jesus Christ said about your false religion, what else did He have to say:
For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. (Mark 7:8-13)
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. (Matthew 23:13-15)
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. (Matthew 23:25-28)
…the Apostle Paul, who was a Jew but became a Christian, and wrote most of the New Testament. What did he have to say about his Jewish religion?
Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ. (Philippians 3:5-8)
The Apostle Paul didn’t mince words, dung.
Richard, — DUNG? Yep, there goes that God complex again.
Richard,
Just to be clear, are you calling me “dung”? Or all Jews? Or Judaism in general? All of the above? Or have I miunderstood your use of the word?
Dalton, may I request that you find some way to draw added attention to Richard’s posts – highlighting perhaps? We wouldn’t want anyone to be deprived of his wisdom.
@Richard: As an ex catholic, on thing that always confused me was that we were taught that we were NOT required to believe in private revelations. You know, Our Lady of Fatima, Quadalupe, Lourdes. Anyway for some reason we were required to believe in the private revelation of Mary, Joseph concerning Chirst. What do you think of what Dalton says on his video “Alan Hood is one of the clearest voices on the earth right now” . Alan is apparently close friends with Bob Jones at the International House of Prayer who says he goes to heaven on a daily basis. Another private revelation. How about, Mike Bickle, who totally endorses Daltons book, he sees angles all the time. What do you think of those private revelations?
Richard–Oops I mention this because you quote Paul and he had a private revelation then called himself an aposotle.
Larry, you’re an “ex-Catholic” not an “ex-Christian.” Roman Catholicism is not Biblical Christianity and neither are Roman Catholics, Christians. Lady of Fatima and all other demonic manifestations that deceive people into worshipping statues and the “mother goddess” are not from God, they are lying signs and wonders.
I’m really not sure what “visions” or “heavenly experiences” Mike Bickle/Alan Hood/Bob Jones have had, I haven’t met them. I do know one thing though – some people who have been involved with the “international house of prayer” have decleared it to be a cult…and considering most of them are Zionists, I would probably get into theological arguments with them, as I have with Dalton. Yet, I do believe most of them are Christians, that is born of the Spirit of God….and therefore, I’m not going to be sucked into “bad-mouthing” other Christians by a “Jew” who adheres to a “false religion.”
Richard: You may not think that catholics are christians, but I’m sure that a couple billion of them would disagree with you. Tell me, why is it that you would call people “dung” that have what you say is a false religion and yet others who you call Zionist and preach lies and are of a cult “born of the Spirit of God”?
Why no condemnation / judgement and quoting of scripture for them? Daltons Tauranga house of prayer is a sister location to the IHOP-international house of prayer-Who is the corporate office for the IWT and YWAM organizations. Google Mike Bickle, Alan Hood and Bob Jones, these are not people filled with the spirit of god. These are false prophets, and have been proven so. These organizations best I can tell are nothing but entertainment companys under the false pretense of religion. Can you teach false “christianity” as long as you say you believe in Christ, your considered to be filled with the spirit of god?
The deception of Judaism, is the belief that the Christian Bible came from the Jews. It is clear the New Testament did not come from the Jews, the Jewish religion is condemned throughout the New Testament. That is why I hate Christian Zionism and so-called Judeo-Christianity, it is the greatest lie of the devil to ever take captive Christian thought and theology, the true yeast of the Pharisee.
The term “Jew” was used by the Babylonians to refer to the captive Judeans…no Jew by religion existed before the return from the Babylonian captivity. Josephus writes, “So the Jews prepared the work. Jew is the name they are called by, from the day that they came up from Babylon.”
The only books of the Old Testament that were written after the return from Babylon are Kings, Chronicles, Ezra and Nehemiah (all of them historical, rather than doctrinal), Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi. In none of these, do the Jews receive anything but rebuke for their wickedness, and their apostasy from the religion of the Old Testament.
Rabbi Stephen F. Wise of the United States said, “The return from Babylon and the introduction of the Babylonian Talmud mark the end of Hebrewism and the beginning of Judaism.” Even the Rabbi, acknowledges that Judaism is birthed in Babylon, a harlot religion based on Babylonian mysticism and Jewish supremacy, the Kabbalah and the Talmud.
The Jews are not only responsible for the blood of the prophets but have continued their tirade against Christ and His people (Christians) throughout history and it has now come to fruition in the form of international Jewish communism. They are the ones who have continually persecuted Christians down through the ages and have continually spewed forth the lies that they’re the victims, when infact the Christians have been the victims.
St. Justin said in the middle of the second century: “The Jews were behind all the persecutions of the Christians. They wandered through the country, everywhere hating and undermining the Christian faith.” Nothing has changed.
Judaism is an anti-Christ, demonic religion, which has nothing to do with Biblical Christianity, infact, Judaism is hatefully disposed to Christ, Christians and Christianity. Repent and believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ, lest you suffer eternal hell for your sin. The only reason people go to hell is not for what they’ve done, but for what they haven’t done – that is, believing in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Larry, I didn’t call anyone “dung” – and I was going to post a Scripture, here it is:
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
(2 Corinthians 11:13-15)
Happy?
Richard: I’m happy I’m not one of those false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. That was Paul wasn’t it?
Yes, Paul is the author of both epistles to the Corinthians.
Talmudic Judaism:
Rosh Hashanah 17a. Christians (minnim) and others who reject the Talmud will go to hell and be punished there for all generations.
Sanhedrin 90a. Those who read the New Testament (“uncanonical books”) will have no portion in the world to come.
Shabbath 116a. Jews must destroy the books of the Christians, i.e. the New Testament.
Moed Kattan 17a: If a Jew is tempted to do evil he should go to a city where he is not known and do the evil there.
Erubin 21b. Whosoever disobeys the rabbis deserves death and will be punished by being boiled in hot excrement in hell.
Sanhedrin 58b. If a heathen (gentile) hits a Jew, the gentile must be killed.
Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a gentile (“Cuthean”) the wages owed him for work.
Sanhedrin 57a . When a Jew murders a gentile (“Cuthean”), there will be no death penalty. What a Jew steals from a gentile he may keep.
Baba Kamma 37b. The gentiles are outside the protection of the law and God has “exposed their money to Israel.”
Yebamoth 98a. All gentile children are animals.
Abodah Zarah 36b. Gentile girls are in a state of niddah (filth) from birth.
Abodah Zarah 22a-22b . Gentiles prefer sex with cows.
Gittin 57a. Says Jesus is in hell, being boiled in “hot excrement.”
Sanhedrin 43a. Says Jesus (“Yeshu” and in Soncino footnote #6, Yeshu “the Nazarene”) was executed because he practiced sorcery: “It is taught that on the eve of Passover Jesus was hung, and forty days before this the proclamation was made: Jesus is to be stoned to death because he has practiced sorcery and has lured the people to idolatry…He was an enticer and of such thou shalt not pity or condone.”
Yebamoth 63a. States that Adam had sexual intercourse with all the animals in the Garden of Eden.
Sanhedrin 55b. A Jew may marry a three year old girl (specifically, three years “and a day” old).
Baba Mezia 59b. A rabbi debates God and defeats Him. God admits the rabbi won the debate.
“Jesus was a bastard born of adultery.” (Yebamoth 49b, p.324).
“Mary was a whore: Jesus (Balaam) was an evil man.” (Sanhedrin 106a &b, p.725).
“Christians are allied with Hell, and Christianity is worse than incest”. (Abodah Zarah 17a, p.85).
“WHEN MESSIAH COMES HE WILL DESTROY THE CHRISTIANS”. (Sanhedrin 99a,p.668).
“Those who read the Gospels are doomed to Hell”. (Sanhedrin 90a, 100b, pp.601-602, 680).
Judaism is fore akin to Islam, than Biblical Christianity.
Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and love thy neighbour as thyself. (Luke 10:27)
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)
Ofcourse, I would be labelled an “anti-Semite” by those Christ-denying, God-hating Judaizers, even though I have nothing against Hebrews, Arabs, Assyrians, Persians or other semitic peoples….
Benjamin Disraeli, a Jew, and Prime Minister of England, was attributed with this statement in 1844: “The world is governed by very different personages from what is imagined by those who are not behind the scenes.”
Winston Churchill, a Jew, and Prime Minister of England, stated to the London press in 1922: “From the days of (Jew) Sparticus (Adam) Wisehophf, (Jew) Karl Marx, (Jew) Leon Trotsky, (Jew) Belacoon, (Jew) Rosa Lusenberg, and (Jew) Ema Goldman, this world conspiracy has been steadily growing. This conspiracy played a definite recognizable role in the tragedy of the French revolution. It has been the mainspring of every subversive movement during the 19th century. And now at last this band of extraordinary personalities from the underworld of the great cities of Europe and America have gripped the Russian people by the hair of their head and have become the undisputed masters of that enormous empire.”
Justice Felix Frankfurter, a Jew, and U.S. Supreme Court Justice: “The real rulers in Washington are INVISIBLE and exercise power from behind the scenes.”
John E. Hylan, a Jew, Mayor of New York 1918 – 1925, said “The real menace of our Republic is the INVISIBLE government which like a giant octopus sprawls its slimy legs over our cities, states and nation.”
Franklin D. Roosevelt (real name – Rosenveldt) a Jew, U.S. President, in a letter written Nov. 21, 1933 to Colonel E Mandell House (real name – Haus ) a Jew, Roosevelt states: “The real truth of the matter is, as you and I know, that a financial element in the large centers has owned the government of the U.S. since the days of Andrew Jackson.” (History points to the last truly honorable and incorruptible American president as Andrew Jackson “Old Hickory”.)
Rowan Gaither, President of the Ford Foundation (either Jewish or certainly under control of the Jews), in 1954 lends proof to what we know to be fact today, namely that many of our Presidents have been a knowing part of this World Conquest plot. Mr. Gaither stated to Congressional Reese Commission investigator Norman Dodd: “We operate here under directives that emulate from the White House. . . The substance of the directives under which we operate is that we shall use our grant making power to alter life in the United States so that we can comfortably be merged with the Soviet Union.” (Dwight Eisenhower, a Jew, was President of the United States at the time.)
Carroll Quigley, Professor of History at Georgetown University, member of the CFR (one of the U.S. organizations dedicated to World Government) and mentor to former U.S. President Bill Clinton, a Jew, as is his wife Hillary Rodham Clinton (“Rodham” purportedly was changed from Roditski or Radetsky), stated in his book “Tragedy and Hope”: “The Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) is the American Branch of a society that originated in England. . . (and). . . believes national boundaries should be obliterated and one-world rule established.’
Peter Hoagland, Nebraska State Senator and Humanist, speaking on radio in 1983 with the great American Pastor and Patriot Everett Sileven said: “Fundamental, Bible-believing people do not have the right to indoctrinate their children in their religious beliefs because we, the state, are preparing them for the year 2000, when America will be part of a one-world global society and their children will not fit in.”
Barry Goldwater, a Jew, and U.S. Senator (Arizona) in his book “WITH NO APOLOGIES”, state this about another Globalist group: “The Trilateral Commission is international. . .(and). . . is intended to be the vehicle for multinational consolidation of the commercial and banking interests by seizing control of the political government of the United States. The Trilateral Commission represents a skillful, coordinated effort to seize control and consolidate the four centers of power – POLITICAL, MONETARY, INTELLECTUAL, and ECCLESIASTICAL.”
George H.W. Bush, U.S. President “It is the SACRED principles enshrined in the UN Charter to which we will henceforth pledge our allegiance.” UN Building, February 1, 1992
Walt Rustow, Council on Foreign Relations member and UN spokesman: “It is in the American interest to put an end to Nationhood.”
Zbigniew Brzezinski, Jew, National Security Advisor to President Jimmy Carter and advisor to 4 other presidents, Exec. Dir. Of Trilateral Comm., Marxist (Communist) and proud of it! Here he speaks about what a New World Order will be like: “The technetronic era involves the gradual appearance of a more controlled society. Such a society would be dominated by an elite, unrestrained by traditional values. Soon it will be possible to assert almost continuous surveillance over every citizen and maintain up-to-date complete files containing even the most personal information about the citizen. These files will be subject to instantaneous retrieval by the authorities.” Between Two Ages, Z. Brzezinski
Dr. Kurk E. Koch, Professor, Lectured at 100 Universities in 65 countries on 5 continents, Subjects of expertise: New World Order, Occultism, Extreme Movements, Parapsychology. His assessment of the coming NWO under the United Nations is that it will reduce everything to one common denominator:
“The system will be made up of a single currency, single centrally financed government, single tax system, single language, single political system, single world court of justice, single head (one individual leader), a single state religion.”
He further states: “Each person will have a registered number, without which he will not be allowed to buy or sell: and there will be one universal world church. Anyone who refuses to take part in this universal system will have no right to exist.”
This is the definition of the New World Order – One World Government.
THIS is the definition of Communism (Judaism)
The Rothschilds (Jewish) (Mayer Amschel Bauer – Alias, Rothschild) the Godfather of the Rothschild Banking Cartel of Europe stated, “Give me control of a nation’s money and I care not who makes the laws.”
Lewis McFadden, U.S. Congressman, said this about those same international financial conspirators, the international bankers, during the very time they were taking over the monetary control of America: “We have in this country one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. I refer to the Federal Reserve Board and the Federal Reserve Banks, hereinafter called the FED. They are NOT government institutions. They are private monopolies which prey upon the people of these United States for the benefit of themselves and their foreign customers.
American Mercury Magazine, December 1957, pg 92. “The INVISIBLE Money Power is working to control and enslave mankind. It financed Communism, Fascism, Marxism, Zionism and Socialism. All of these are directed to making the United States a member of a World Government. . .”
Vladimir Lenin, Jew: “It would be the greatest mistake, certainly, to think that concessions mean PEACE. Nothing of the kind. Concessions are nothing but a new form of war.”
Dmitri Manualisky, Probable Jew, Soviet Diplomat (1947) revealed the Communists’ intention to brainwash the American public: “ We will offer the Christian world unheard of peace overtures, and these nations, stupid and decadent, will leap at the chance to be our friends; they will willingly cooperate in their own destruction. Then, when their guard is down, and they have gone to sleep, we will smash them with our clenched fist.”
Mikhail Gorbachev’s speech at the 70th anniversary of the Bolshevik Revolution: “…In October 1917, we parted with the old world, rejecting it once and for all. We are moving toward a New World, a World of Communism. We shall NEVER turn off that road.”
And from his speech to the Soviet Politburo, November 1987:
“Gentlemen, comrades, do not be concerned about all you hear about Glasnost and Perestroika and democracy in the coming years. These are primarily for outward consumption. There will be no significant internal changes in the Soviet Union, other than for cosmetic purposes. Our purpose is to disarm the Americans and let them fall asleep.”
Norman Thomas, for many years the U.S. Socialist (Communist) Presidential candidate proclaimed: “The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism (Communism). But under the name of ‘liberalism’ they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist (Communist) program, until one day America will be a Socialist (Communist) nation, without knowing how it happened.”
David Spangler, Director of Planetary Initiative, (a United Nations World government group): “No one will enter the New World Order unless he or she will make a pledge to worship Lucifer. No one will enter the New Age unless he will take a Luciferian Initiation.”
American Humanist Movement, Doctrinal statement: “We are humanists. . . We are not for God. . . We are for socialism.”
Humanist Magazine, 1983 Jan-Feb issue. Humanist John J. Dunphy: “I am convinced that the battle for humankind’s future must be waged and won in the public school classroom by teachers that correctly perceive their role as proselytizers of a new faith which will replace the rotting corpse of Christianity.”
Karl Marx (Jew): “My object in life is to dethrone God and destroy capitalism.”
Leon Trotsky (real name Lev Davidovich – Jew): “Religions are illogical primitive ignorance. There is nothing as ridiculous and tragic as a religious government.”
Dr, Chester Pierce, Harvard University Professor, Humanist, New World Order Guru. This Professor instructs teachers and those students who aspire to become teachers of our children as follows:
“Every child in America who enters school at the age of five is mentally ill, because he comes to school with an allegiance to our institutions, toward the preservation of this form of government that we have. Patriotism, nationalism, and sovereignty, all that proves that children are sick because a truly well individual is one who has rejected all of those things, and is truly the international child of the future.”
Dr. Paul Brandwein (Jew), Leading U.S. child psychologist. He instructs teachers on how to recognize mental disability in our school children. He states:
“Every child who believes in God is mentally ill.”
Dr. Sidney Simon (Jew), Lecturer, Educator who some say specializes in encouraging immoral and criminal activities in youths. He instructs teachers as follows:
“We do not need any more preaching about right and wrong. The old ‘thou shalt nots” simply are not relevant.” Further he says, “Values clarification is a method for teachers to change the values of children without getting caught.”
Brock Chisholm (1959 Humanist of the Year) was at one time head of the World Health Organization, and in the February 1946 issue of Psychiatry he wrote,
“To achieve world government, it is necessary to remove from the minds of men their individualism, loyalty to family tradition, national patriotism, and religious dogmas…We have swallowed all manner of poisonous certainties fed us by our parents, our Sunday and day school teachers, our politicians, our priests…The reinterpretation and eventual eradication of the concept of right and wrong which has been the basis of child training, the substitution of intelligent and rational thinking for faith in the certainties of old people, these are the belated objectives…for charting the changes in human behavior.”
Judaism is an anti-Christ religion and all those who adhere to it have not the light of the world nor the knowledge of God.
Where for art thou Judaizer, thou that preach a false gospel? You are accursed and under the condemnation of the infinitely Holy Creator for rejecting the testimony of the only true God and the redemption promised to Abraham, the Lord Jesus Christ – unlike Dalton and other “Christian” Zionists, by the mercy of God I have been released from your dark cords of deception and I thus lump you all in the same category as other heathens, including Muslims, Roman Catholics, Mormons, Hindus, Buddhists and the like…
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
(Matthew 7:15)
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:8)
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. (2 Peter 2:1)
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. (2 John 1:7)
John 8:44
New International Version (NIV)
44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
This passage has been the source of much grievous hatred by Christians who believed and worshiped Jesus, loved and died for Jesus. These same loving, benevolent Christians , who represented Christianity at the pulpits, preached love and peace, were the same people that lit the torches of anti-Semitism in Europe with pogrom after pogrom after Inquisition, after Holocaust. Europe is drenched in blood from those who were Church leaders, monks and pastors who led believers and followers to kill en masse thousands upon thousands of Jews, mercilessly slaying them on the basis of the words of John and Luther and Hitler.
While the citations in the Talmud are erroneous, and are used to demonize and vilify Jews and to justify the hatred of Christians against Jews. In the entire History of Christianity, I cannot name a single book-burning of any of the New Testament, nor of any Christian books by Jews; I can name hundreds of times Christians have burned the books of Jews, without even knowing what was inside. I cannot name a single time, that there has been a pogrom of Jews against Christians where Christians have been slaughtered en masse for their beliefs. I cannot name any time where Christians are vilified, demonized and hated purely on the basis of religious sentiment. Jews are taught to value human life, the Talmud teaches that a person who saves a life, saves the whole world. No other civilization in the entire world has, at its own country that mourns its own dead, a separate section dedicated to the honor and praise of those dear, beloved souls who risked life and limb to save even a single Jew in the Garden of the Nations at the Holocaust Museum, Yad Vashem in Jerusalem, Israel. I can name a movie, blockbuster in stature that glorifies the behavior of Schindler, who risked his life to save thousands of Jews.
The audacity, shamelessness and bigotry of someone that could even suggest that Jews are vile is to be regarded as demeaning to humanity as a whole. History is stained with the blood of those who are too bigoted to appreciate human life. I suggest you reassess your statements.
Very well said Danny. Gutwrenching. But true. Our hands are stained with blood.
Jesus’ words as recorded by John were no more anti-semitic than Jeremiah or Isaiah’s prophecies. But unfortunately, cruel and sadistic men have used them to justify atrocities born of their own wicked hearts. It grieves me to know that the worst is yet to come.
Dalton,
I appreciate your speaking up against the hatred being spewed forth by Richard even if it is a bit little and a bit late.
However I have to take exception to your use of the oft-cited defense of perceived NT anti-semitism. Your comparison of John to the harsh rebukes of Jeremiah and Isaiah is a bit too glib, because it ignores context. Isaiah and Jeremiah were Jews speaking exclusively to Jews writing in Hebrew and canonized in Hebreww for Jews and only Jews. John was written in Greek, probably by non-jews, for a primarily non-jewish christian audience. That, by definition, makes it infintely more prejudicial than the Hebrew prophets. When Jeremiah and isaiah said what they said, they did so as Jews sharing in the pain of the brothers’ sinfullness imploring them to rectify their ways for the benefit of them all. When John 8:44 was preached even in its earliest incarnations it was by chritsians speaking primarily to non-Jews in a context that could only have been understood to be demeaning and castigating the Jewish people as beingrthe despised of God. The fact that it does so by putting the wrods in the mouth of a Jewish Jesus, is irrelevant.
Imagine the harsh closed-door half-time locker room rant given by a coach castigating his team for their miserable performance in the first half. He calls them lazy good-for-nothings not worth their weight in s–t. That would be the private words of a man who clearly has the best interests of both himself and the players in mind – comparable to Isaiah.
Imagine now, that the league in which this team competes is on the brink of disolution and only a few teams will be retained and merged into a new league. Now imagine the press agent of a rival team getting up at an open press conference and calling the players of this first team “lazy good for nothings not worth their weight in s–t”. That would be prejudicial. That is John 8:44.
Dalton you wrote:
>>”Jesus’ words as recorded by John were no more anti-semitic than Jeremiah or Isaiah’s prophecies.”
John 8:44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Dalton you wrote:
>>”Very well said Danny. Gutwrenching. But true. Our hands are stained with blood.”
So whatever claim that Christianity has to its being the true religion of the world, is stained with the undeniable fact that the religion is built on the putrid dead bodies of people who were willing to give up their lives rather than convert to the deification and worship of a man.
Where is there anything that says anything as pithy as that in any book in the Tanakh? How can you possibly compare the words of Isaiah and Jeremiah to this? Name a single prophecy in the Tanakh that was used to express the shameless glorification of mass murder at the hands of Christians?
Who anyone’s consciousness, would allow oneself the moral, ethical right to base oneself off of a religion of such a murder. You claim that your hands are stained, your pen is laced with the blood of the ilk of John. Isaiah and Jeremiah’s aim at rebuke was at repentance and return. John’s aim was at incitement, destruction and vilification. The Jewish people have suffered immensely at the hands of the world. But they returned on the wings of being close to their belief and loyalty to G-d. I don’t see how anyone could follow the religion of John on a pure moral, ethical or historical basis.
What a joke – “hatred being spewed by Richard” – go read your own unGodly, Christ-denying book the Talmud, that refers to our daughters as filth… you godless, Christ-rejecting heathens. Repent.
I wasn’t adressing you Richard, I was addressing Dalton. Your interjection is rude.
Hey D-nny, y-u hyp-crite, n-t surprised, y-u are a Jew right?
“As a side point, your citation of verses with the translation of the NKJV or NIV is not conducive to debate. The translations you have used are clearly polemical, with a mind at promoting their perspective. I do not accept these translations. I suggest you view an authentic translation that is close to the Hebrew/Greek, if not the Hebrew/Greek itself.”
History? Really? Shall we talk history…mass murder by Christians? – are you talking about the luciferian Hitler who was funded by Jews? Or the Jewish Bolsheviks, or the Jewish luciferian Lenin? Why do Jews continually blame Christians for World War 2, when the greatest mass murderers of history are actually Jews, the most appalling genocide was not committed by Nazis but by communists.
The Jewish historian Josephus even stated about the Jews, ‘no age did ever breed a generation more fruitful in wickedness that this was, from the beginning of the world. And the great Christian reformer Martin Luther, who exposed both the Roman Catholic Church and the Jews stated: “They stabbed and pierced the body of the young boy Simon of Trent. They have also murdered other children…The sun never did shine on a more bloodthirsty and revengeful people as they who imagine to be the people of God, and who desire to and think they must murder and crush the heathen. Jesus Christ, the Almighty Preacher from Nazareth, spoke to the Jews: ?Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning…”
You get no sympathy from me, you Christ-denying heathens, “war by deception” as Mossad claims…. your deception has Dalton captive and promoting the “Jewish cause” – but I’m not fooled. Woe to you, you Pharisees, repent.
“…They stabbed and pierced the body of the young boy Simon of Trent. They have also murdered other children…”
Congratulations Dalton. Your blog is now a vehicle for the promulgation of the blood libel.
What’s the matter Yehuda? Are you too ashamed to accept responsibility for what history proclaims about your “false religion?” – or, do you want to deny it and try to deceive the world? I believe the second assertion is closer to the truth.
Richard, I’m pleased to see that you placed “false religion” in quotes indicating that you realize that the allegation is simply an opinion – a quote as it were – as opposed to truth. On behalf of all Jews, I express appreciation of your endorsement and we accept your apology.
Ha…. need I apologize to you for telling you the truth? – I think not. “Repent and believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ” lest your unGodly, anti-Christ religion takes you captive to God’s Hell, where all “anti-Christs” abode.
I will exalt the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob – the very same God of the Lord Jesus Christ – who is our Saviour, Redeemer and High Priest. For in Christ, we have forgiveness of sins and the gift of eternal life. To the glorious, eternal King of kings, I bow my knee.
@ Richard
I addressed your points made on the post “Dalton’s Fifth Response”.
For clarification I have copied them here:
@Richard
1. http://judaism.about.com/od/judaismbasics/a/Why-Do-Some-Jews-Spell-God-G-D.htm
I don’t appreciate your use of the “-” I find it offensive that you wish to mock my beliefs and religion.
2. The KJV is not an acceptable translation. It uses an out-dated, inaccurate version of the text, the Hebrew text is not the accepted Lenningrad B19 Codex which is considered by most scholars to be the closest to the Ben Asher Masoretic Text. There are some (like Rabbi Dr Joseph Breuer) who argue that the Keter Aram (Aleppo Codex) is closer. However, the KJV uses neither but is based on the discredited and inaccurate Bomberg Edition of 1525 Venice. It should be noted that even the Masoretic notes alongside the Bomberg Edition are considered to be inaccurate, and hence Christian Ginsberg among others have written extensively on the Masora Ketana & Gedola, against its usage. The Greek text that the KJV is built is based on the 1550 Stephanus Text which was used by the Great Bible as well. This was considered the Textus Receptus in 1550, but Scholars today, by enlarge have concurred that the Nestle-Aland 27-28th United Bible Society Edition to be supreme. Even so there many who argue that the Textus Receptus of the Byzantine 1991 Text is to be favored. In this respect, the NIV writes that their choice of text (the Greek) is Eclectic. Nonetheless, no-one uses the Stephanus Text of 1550. If anything the Westcott Hort Text of the 19th Century is far more scholarly in its approach.
3. The translation is polemical, inaccurate and does not take into account 500 years of Modern Christian Scholarship nor 3000 years of Jewish scholarship.
4. The best use of the KJV is its poetical nuances and presentation of what was considered the best piece of literature of its time. Nonetheless it has undergone substantial revision.
5. The translations of the KJV are not representative of the Hebrew/Greek on which it is based, and favored the old Lutheran translations of its time, rather than closeness to the Hebrew/Greek (although for its time, it was considered heresy (in Catholic England and Europe) and novelle in its closeness to the text.
6. You still have yet to show why your comments are relevant to the Discussion of Deut 4.15-40.
What follows is a brief synopsis of what you wrote. Please consider that your vile outburst is nothing more than a sad attempt at reducing the debate and level of understanding to soft-peat, which is not worth my trouble to intellectually engage. However, for the sake of others on the forum. It behooves me to at least show why you are simply wrong.
You wrote:
>>Hey D-nny, y-u hyp-crite, n-t surprised, y-u are a Jew right?
Ad Hominem. Whats it to you what I am? If I’m a bible-bashing Southern Baptist, that doesn’t give you the right nor anyone else to provide the gall to talk like as you so eloquently put it: “a heathen”.
>>History? Really? Shall we talk history…mass murder by Christians? – are you talking about the luciferian Hitler who was funded by Jews?
How is it possibly logical, that the Jewish people would, under duress of life and limb, engage in the mass-murder of 6 million of their brethren. That is behind humane, that is insanity.
>>Or the Jewish Bolsheviks, or the Jewish luciferian Lenin?
This citation is from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, a polemical work engaged in the promulgation, and incitement of anti-Jewish hatred. Call it what you like. At the end of the day, hatred for another group is entirely immoral, unethical and quite frankly, anyone who wishes to present this material, deserves to be locked up as a violation of being a better, civilized human being.
>>Why do Jews continually blame Christians for World War 2,
Oh, don’t get me wrong, I don’t blame Christians per se for World War 2, if there is blame to be made, it should be on those who were supposed to be involved in preventing it. History has shown that Sir Neville Chamberlain’s claim of “Peace in our Time” was a mistake – a serious mistake in international detente and negotiation. You cannot negotiate with people with entirely different aims and ethos. Sometimes you have to use brute force. I’m not laying the blame on him, there is the treaty of Versaille, the issue of the League of Nations, the rife antisemitism in Europe for thousands of years, the needless dislocation of peoples, the economic depression. There are lots of factors, however, one thing remains it could have been prevented. In that the Christian Church can be held responsible and culpable – for speaking out against individuals such as Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Franco etc.
>>when the greatest mass murderers of history are actually Jews, the most appalling genocide was not committed by Nazis but by communists.
The Communists of Russia and the systematic murder of millions in Russia is not due to Jews. Trotsky was Jewish, and Trotsky was one such individual, who was murdered by Stalin. Marx was Jewish, and in fact converted to Christianity. Lenin was baptized into Russian Orthodoxy. The biggest perpetrator of the death of millions of Russians is due, not to the Bolsheviks, as the claim is of Mein Kampf or The Elders of Zion, but rather, Stalin. Stalin was also involved in the church however, he rejected its teachings. Stalin was not Jewish.
>>The Jewish historian Josephus
As interesting as Josephus is, scholarly opinion of his authority and accuracy is mixed. Josephus also is not to be regarded as the sole arbiter of truth. The fact that he was Jewish is by no means a approbation any more than saying that Lenin was baptized. In addition, Josephus lived until about 100 CE. He does not mention anything about Christianity, save for a few scant lines, which have been conclusively argued to be a later addition by Christian monks. His comments about Judaism do not take into account 2000 years of Jewish, and Western Classical Historiography.
You wrote:
>> even stated about the Jews, ‘no age did ever breed a generation more fruitful in wickedness that this was, from the beginning of the world.
Citation? I don’t recall seeing this anywhere.
>> And the great Christian reformer Martin Luther, who exposed both the Roman Catholic Church and the Jews stated: “They stabbed and pierced the body of the young boy Simon of Trent. They have also murdered other children…The sun never did shine on a more bloodthirsty and revengeful people as they who imagine to be the people of God, and who desire to and think they must murder and crush the heathen. Jesus Christ, the Almighty Preacher from Nazareth, spoke to the Jews: ?Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning…”
Sounds like Martin Luther’s work: “The Jews and their lies”, the famous book, which has been banned in Germany, and Universities in general for its vile anti-Jewishness, incitement to violence and murder. I regard Martin Luther as one of the large reasons Germany was so virile in its anti-Jewishness, he is no less culpable for the murder of 6 million Jews, and a further 6 million others, than Goebbels who is his modern inheritor.
>>You get no sympathy from me, you Christ-denying heathens, “war by deception” as Mossad claims…. your deception has Dalton captive and promoting the “Jewish cause” – but I’m not fooled. Woe to you, you Pharisees, repent.
Sympathy? You don’t deserve a platform to write. You should be locked up. I feel pity that you have so much bent up anger over a group of people that have done nothing to you personally.
How sad and pathetic.
…I don’t deserve a platform to write and should be locked up? There you go again, you anti-Christ Jew – trying to silence those who proclaim the truth, like you did to the prophets, John the Baptist, Christ Himself and the disciples. I’ll tell you the truth you heathen, your religion is Christ-denying, a hateful abomination before the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob – you are dedicated to slandering the Lord Jesus Christ and perverting true worship and dedication to the God of Israel. You need to repent.
Danny, Pal,
Take a deep breath and take a minute to check out the usual volume of responses that Dalton’s blog posts normally generate. In December, for example, 13 posts generated a total of 10 comments, several from Dalton himslef. His picking a fight with Rabbi Blumenthal mutiplied his traffic by about 30-fold. If we leave him he’ll be back to one-on-ones with the likes of our friend Richard.
Adios guys.
Statistics now? It is always about numbers for you Jews – I will tell you the truth, God keeps a record. And unless you repent and turn to Jesus Christ for salvation, you will be held accountable, statistics, He knows what you do behind closed doors.
“Congratulations Dalton. Your blog is now a vehicle for the promulgation of the blood libel.”
I’m guessing that being a full time husband, father, and engaged in ministry is quite time-consuming. I’m also certain that Dalton does not agree with Richard in word or in spirit. Given that this is a long-standing argument where Richard posits the same views and cannot be moved, and in which Dalton patiently reiterates in a gracious manner, all that is happening right now…is that a whole lot more people are giving a conspiracy theory and bad attitude WAY too much attention – which does nothing but cause it to grow. Perhaps if we were to ignore those interruptions rather than rising to the occasion, we could focus back on the discussion, which is actually interesting..?
“The Jews” were never God’s chosen people, those Edomites who make the law of God of no effect, bastard children and these more recent sons of Gomer, Ashkenaz Christ-hating Judaizers.
Judahites and Israelites are NOT “Jews.” – even leadi…ng Rabbis publicly confess that Jews are not and should not be referred to as the Israelites. But there are wolves amongst the sheep, paid to deceive and proclaim unBiblical doctrines, doctrines birthed out of deception and even entire Bibles translated and twisted to support such disgusting heresy.
This heresy was birthed from those deceptive sons of hell, those Zionist Jews, who not only exploit “usury” from Christian nations but have infiltrated government and financial institutions to such an extent, they tax foriegn, sovereign nations to fund their imperialistic, war-mongering aspirations – what good is it for these blood-thirsty, Christ-denying, mammonites to gain the world, when their souls will burn?
Richard– So who was Jesus to you? Wasnt he a Jew? You hate the Judiazers …but your christ was a judaizer! Remember what he called the Caananite woman? This Jewish messiah called her and her gentile people DOGS. You okay with that? Your Jewish godman calling gentiles dogs? (That is a sin by the way, it is forbidden for Jews to mistreat gentiles)
And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, “Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed.” 23 But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, “Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us.” 24 But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” 25 But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, “Lord, help me!” 26 And He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.” 27 But she said, “Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.”
Jesus was not a Jew – he exposed Judaism for what it was and condemned those who followed it. Jesus Christ was of the “line” of Judah, He was a Judahite, not a Jew.
“That is a sin by the way, it is forbidden for Jews to mistreat gentiles.” – really? Maybe I understand the Talmud and the historic account of your religion.
Jesus Christ was sent for the “lost sheep of the house of Israel” (NOTE, not Jews!) – Yes, she was a canannite, not an Israelite but Jesus still justified her because of her faith, making her, one of Israel along side Ruth etc.
I’m not deceived by your false religion.
Hello Richard,
Many of your comments on this thread suggest a deep-seated personal animosity toward Jews. I’m not really interested in discussing scripture with you but I am curious about something. Have your personal – not blog exchanges but personal – interactions with Jewish people in your own life sugested to you that they are more deceitful and godless than others. Again, I’m not asking you about your perspective on scripture or history, just about your personal experiences. Put differently, has it been your experience that you can correctly identify Jewish people by their actions without any other suggestive identifiers?
BTW, I’m not Jewish. Thanks.
Hello Arnold,
Jews are not “godless” – they simply have their “own” god, just like Muslims have their “own” god – and it is not the God of Scripture. Yes, I have had “personal interactions” with “Jewish” people and “Israelis,” just as I have had with Muslims and other heathens – I don’t have a “deep-seated personal animosity toward Jews” but I do hate their religion and what they teach; Jesus Christ is “burning in hell in excrement” and all daughters of “goyim” are filthy. I also do not hate Muslims, but I hate their religion too.
It is their religion that causes hatred, not mine – I worship the God of Scripture, who commands me to love everyone. But love, without TRUTH, is nothing. Truth is not bowing down to those who deny Christ, truth is not sucking-up to Jews, truth is not weakness but strength – and it does not compromise, truth is NOT politically correct!
Thank you Richard.
So let’s say you bump into an aquaintence in a restaurant and he introduces you to his lunch partner, a Mr. Lefkowitz. Mr. Lefkowitz extends his hand to you. How would you describe your initial feelings on shaking Mr. Lefkowitz’s hand. Would it be fair to say that you harbor no personal disdain toward him so long as he does not bring up any matter related to his hated jewish beliefs?
…are you propagating that I wouldn’t shake his hand because his name is “Lefkowitz” ?? And what’s to say that he isn’t a Christian or even an atheist? I wouldn’t know, I’ve just met the man. And if he did bring up his beliefs, there certainly would be “discomfort” – the same I would feel if he was a member of the KKK or Freemasons or a Muslim or any other deceptive religion that worships Lucifer.
…So if fact he mentioned that he was Jewish first, would you shake his hand?
Are you saying that that one fact would engender feelings about him similar to those engendered by someone mentioning that he belonged to the Klan?
What’s the difference, Talmudic Judaism refers to “goyim” in very much the same way the “klan” refers to blacks?
So is knowing nothing more than the fact that someone is Jewish enough to prevent you from shaking his hand?
Would you shake the hands of Nazis or KKK members? Personally I shake hands with people every day in business, regardless of their religion, but I would not shake their hand in support of their religion – their religion calls my mother filthy and if they believe that, why should I shake their hand?
Today’s Jews did not descend from the ancient Israelites. DNA science proves that the “Jews” in Israel and around the world are predominantly of Khazar stock. They are mainly a Turkish-Mongol blood mixture, says Dr. Shlomo Sand, a Jew, and distinguished history professor from Tel Aviv University in Israel. Sand’s heavily documented book is turning the Jewish world upside down. One amazing fact is that the “Jews” who went to Israel from Europe in 1948 and set up the new nation have no history as a people of Israel. Instead, their ancestors were converts to Judaism. So those today who say they are “Jews” are not of Abraham.
http://inventionofthejewishpeople.com/